Orally delivered Peptides Finally explained

[TheGame46]

SO HERE IT IS WHAT YOU HAVE ALL BEEN WAITING FOR!!!!

HOW DO ORAL TROPINS ACTUALLY WORK??
Until now this information has been kept secret because the manufacturer was pending a patent on the delivery system. So you can scratch all the buccal absorption, under the tongue crap that may have been mentioned here or there. This was just a way to try and keep people from falling into the pool of morons that think we are selling peptides that you digest. The tropins work by using peptides to deliver peptides. They utilize special peptides that adhere to the epithelial cells in the mucosa. These peptides are very important because not only do they adhere, they signal the lipid membrane to open protein channels that actually take the peptide into the cell. Once in the epithelial cells the mucosal adhesion peptides are broken off from the peptide we added whether it be IGF, GHRP-6 or whatever. The peptide is now free to be release through the lymphatic system in its biological active form. This means it is carried throughout the blood stream directly from the cells in your mouth. It never reaches any digestive enzymes or acids beyond that of the mucus in your moth which is actually at about the same pH used to store IGF in acetic acid, so claiming that it’s broken down here is ridiculous. The transport of the peptide to the lymphatic system is what results in a slower more controlled release of the peptide over time.
So I can anticipate the coming questions of how well this actually works. Well this drug delivery system was actually developed for insulin at first as an alternative means to injection. The company that manufacturers the tropins has achieved almost 100% bioavailability in their clinical trials of insulin delivery.
If someone is not getting the results they expect from the tropins user error may be involved. The mucosa cells are mainly in the cheeks so if you are storing it under the tongue, back of the throat, then you are not efficiently using the supplement. Please follow the directions, they are there for a reason. It is not orally taken as in going down the oral cavity. The oral reference is simply because you place it in your mouth. There is an art to acheive maximum absorption but its pretty ez to get it by the 2nd or 3rd try at most.

[L.W.]

Very interesting for sure. But all oral IGF products I have seen and/or used have been junk. It would be a nice alternative to shots by far, but in the real world it hasnt worked....not yet anyway.

I think AP did a study on IBE's oral IGF on the old board.

[trapz]

cool, i can pack a dip of skoal with my igf for extra exorbtion :)

[surazal]

so how do we tell with oral IGF-1 products are using this new "transferal" method and which are just selling diluted IGF-1 crap that will never actually be absorbed?

[TheGame46]

Well for one get it from a company you trust, that has good feedback. That one thing to look for. Another is look for studies that support the science. The method used by IBE is the same method being used for insulin delivery. I wouldnt suggest trusting data reguarding products evaluated by a competing company. There are some test being done with the oral IGF and blood glucose levels that should show some interesting results. I am going to be doing one of the logs myself. I just gotta go pick up some testing strips. I even going to compare the injectable to the tropin, in addition to controls.

[TheGame46]

I forgot to mention user error is a big thing when using a deliver system like this. There is a full guide now available if anyone want to take a look.

[L.W.]

I would never buy IGF from IBE. Heard nothing but bad things about it.

Really if you want IGF go legit and get the injectable. At this point the oral stuff doesnt cut it.

On paper it looks interesting and may have a future, but real world stories of its use prove otherwise at the moment.

In time it might be an option though, with some more work and studies done.

AP is the real guru on this stuff though so he can explain far better I'm sure the ins and outs of oral GH or IGF use.

[TheGame46]

I would like to see such said test. I have been working with IGF in and out of the lab for over 5 years. I'd like to see how he "tested" the tropins and if its actually an applicable test.

[Grunt76]

I would never buy IGF from IBE. Heard nothing but bad things about it.

Really if you want IGF go legit and get the injectable. At this point the oral stuff doesnt cut it.

On paper it looks interesting and may have a future, but real world stories of its use prove otherwise at the moment.

In time it might be an option though, with some more work and studies done.

AP is the real guru on this stuff though so he can explain far better I'm sure the ins and outs of oral GH or IGF use.The oral stuff does cut it. You didn't try it, is all. It's easy to say something doesn't cut it when you have no experience with it. Do you have an agenda with regards to this or do you just want to get bigger and leaner? If so, then get yourself a kit of oratropin and be surprised.

Otherwise, well... Nothing will change your mind, ever. Not the studies, not the results. The stuff plain works.

[Whitey]

Don't confuse "oral GH/IGF" products with IBE's Oratropin-1. Oratropin is real IGF-1, with a cell-mediated delivery system, as Game explained, and the only one of its kind on the market.

IBE also provides IGF-1 LR3 in the injectable lyophilized powder form. Both products, I have personally tested and found them to be very effective. Personally, I don't care whether any of you use an injectable IGF or the Oratropin product. But I will personally vouch that both of them are serious products. I use the injectable, myself, on a structured dosing regimen along with MGF. But my wife loves the Oratropin, and hates the needle, so I love both of them.

[L.W.]

Unless its muscletech we are talking about I dont trash something without experimenting with it first. Mtech speaks for itself of course.


My experinece is not a slam of your company alone. But since you are pushing an agenda to get people to buy your products in the thread I mentioned the IBE brand.

I've only read postive results from Oral IGf on sites that are sponsored by companies that sell it, such as IBE.

Like I said it is interesting, and might even be viable in the future.

I'm not against oral drugs, that would be silly. But at this stage real life results do not match product claims. I would compare it to andriol. On paper it is amazing but real life usuage doesnt match up.

You state user error is the number one cause of unhappy customers, personally I find it hard to believe that so many people used it wrong.

But not to argue the point further you are 100% correct in saying you cant convince me at the moment it works. Everything I've seen says otherwise.

To answer your question though, I'm not attached to any other supp company so no agenda to push here in that regard. I just run a construction company and a gym up north, so unless you are bidding on a new stadium or opening a gym across the street I dont think you would be my competition.

[Grunt76]

You know, a lot of people have trouble using the injectable IGF-1 right.

Heck, some people have trouble taking nolva after a cycle.

[L.W.]

You know, a lot of people have trouble using the injectable IGF-1 right.

Heck, some people have trouble taking nolva after a cycle.


True enough.

But hopefully most people using any form of IGF would know the basics about cycling and about basic PCT.

Of course anyone spending time of the boards will see that their are some fools who run dbol only with no PCT then bitch dbol doesnt work.

However MOST of the people who have tried the oral route for IGF, that I knew, were seasoned vets, many had run inj IGF before.

Perhaps posting the proper way to use the oral IGF here would be a good idea to clear up any misunderstandings.

[Whitey]

Perhaps posting the proper way to use the oral IGF here would be a good idea to clear up any misunderstandings.

Instructions for taking tropins:
(Originally posted by thegame46 at IBE Forums)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Important things to note:
Take at least 1 hour after eating anything and allow at least 30 minutes after administration before eating or drinking anything else. This goes for brushyour your teeth as well guys. I have read of people brushing their teeth right b4 oratropin usage. This is going to hinder absorption sigificantly, trust me. You dont want to induce any salvatatory response. And you don't want to alter the pH or lipid levels of the inside of the mouth. Please allow 30 minute b/t brushing and administration.

Application:
take out the oral syringe and squirt it in the mouth inside the cheek. you can split the dose up half on one side and half at the other. The less swishing you have to do in your mouth the better b/c swishing educes the release of saliva from the glands in your mouth. Now once you have it along the sides of your cheeks. FORGET ITS THERE. Try no to think about something in your mouth try not to play with it. This will also induce saliva excretion.

[surazal]

i also wonder since this oral method is actually inducing IGF-1 production not adding it ... whether the body would be more likely to adjust it's production down to compensate?

i mean is it harder to exceed normal body levels of IGF-1 if you are encouraging the body to produce more rather than adding to the normal body level from an outside source?

[TheGame46]

No its not increasing your production of IGF. Its deliverying IGF into the blood stream straight through your cheek cells. There is no system response that would be any different than injection.

Here is where this occurs minus the tongue
http://www.netterimages.com/images/vpv/000/000/000/499-0550x0350.jpg

[2Sick]

AP did an experiment with this type of stuff a while back and said it was garbage. Ap correct me if I am wrong.

[surazal]

No its not increasing your production of IGF. Its deliverying IGF into the blood stream straight through your cheek cells. There is no system response that would be any different than injection.

thanks for the correction, game.

hmm, i guess i misunderstood then


i thought igf-1 was too big to be absorbed that way?

[TheGame46]

AP did an experiment with this type of stuff a while back and said it was garbage. Ap correct me if I am wrong.

Define experiment, b/c if he used it and said it didn't work that is very biased. Not too mention unscientific, and completely open to user error, among many other variables.

You must understand that people that have been taking HGH long term or long cycles will see less of a difference b/c IGF levels have been already upregulated.
This is why IGF is great for keeping gains post cycle, but doesn't necissarily make a lot more of them.

[jack thomas]

AP did an experiment with this type of stuff a while back and said it was garbage. Ap correct me if I am wrong.
I remember reading that from the old board.

j/t.

[L.W.]

Some IBE salemsan was trying to sell the stuff here on the old board, it caused a big argument. We used to have another member here selling oral IGF as well but once again no one gained from it.

AP being a PHD & biochemist (aka smart dude) did a study on the IBE stuff. He talked with the IBE guy via email/PM about the absorbtion rates and other technical stuff on delivery sytems.

His study was not biased. To claim any study that proves oral GH or IGF is biased is not being fair. It is illogical to assume that only studies done by IBE are correct while the others must be biased, or done incorrectly.

My experinece is hardly a scientific study. But when so many people I know personally try a product and it doesnt work....well....that is enough proof for me. These guys are not selling it either so IMO their experience is less biased then people who work for IBE and stand to profit from selling this stuff.

But to each his own, like everything - try it for yourself and see.

[Grunt76]

Some IBE salemsan was trying to sell the stuff here on the old board, it caused a big argument. We used to have another member here selling oral IGF as well but once again no one gained from it.

AP being a PHD & biochemist (aka smart dude) did a study on the IBE stuff. He talked with the IBE guy via email/PM about the absorbtion rates and other technical stuff on delivery sytems.

His study was not biased. To claim any study that proves oral GH or IGF is biased is not being fair. It is illogical to assume that only studies done by IBE are correct while the others must be biased, or done incorrectly.

My experinece is hardly a scientific study. But when so many people I know personally try a product and it doesnt work....well....that is enough proof for me. These guys are not selling it either so IMO their experience is less biased then people who work for IBE and stand to profit from selling this stuff.

But to each his own, like everything - try it for yourself and see.
You know, here's something for you Mr. Skeptic.

IBE sells everything that is in their tropin kits also as injectables. If we didn't KNOW this stuff works, we wouldn't bother with them. What kind of sense does that make? Sure joe sixpack wants oral more than injectable. But then again, where does IBE advertize? On boards such as this one where everyone "knows" that the injectable is superior.

So why are they doing it? Why, oh why, do they insist on selling oral-delivery in a market utterly convinced that injectable is the way to go?

Because they work. Some of them work BETTER THAN THE INJECTABLE VERSION. Sooner or later even the most diehard skeptics will abandon their denial, because reality is more solid than any belief.

You wanna argue? Just give me a VALID reason why a good-size company like IBE would insist on selling stuff in the same market where people take for granted that other stuff is better. The "other stuff" that they sell also.

[2Sick]

You know, here's something for you Mr. Skeptic.

IBE sells everything that is in their tropin kits also as injectables. If we didn't KNOW this stuff works, we wouldn't bother with them. What kind of sense does that make? Sure joe sixpack wants oral more than injectable. But then again, where does IBE advertize? On boards such as this one where everyone "knows" that the injectable is superior.

So why are they doing it? Why, oh why, do they insist on selling oral-delivery in a market utterly convinced that injectable is the way to go?

Because they work. Some of them work BETTER THAN THE INJECTABLE VERSION. Sooner or later even the most diehard skeptics will abandon their denial, because reality is more solid than any belief.

You wanna argue? Just give me a VALID reason why a good-size company like IBE would insist on selling stuff in the same market where people take for granted that other stuff is better. The "other stuff" that they sell also.


Ok, so then where is your documented proof? If you can produce that then maybe some would consider believing it or using the product.
If AP did and experiment on the compoound I stand behind his findings 100%.

[ViolentStorm]

Well you can knock it until you try it .... that is my philosophy ... I tried Anadrol three times ... and it did NOTHING FOR ME. I even went to 100 mgs a day ... with nothing ... no strength .. no mass .. I asked my Doctor ... and he said .. it could be fake .. or I could just be a NON RESPONDER ... I think the same would apply here ..some people might get nothing from it ...and some .. may get alll the bang ...

[TheGame46]

Advances in oral mucosal drug delivery

Thursday, December 12, 2002 08:00 IST
Prof. Roop K. Khar

Extensive efforts have recently been focused on targeting a drug or delivery system in a particular region of the body for extended period of time, not only for local targeting of drugs but also for the better control of systemic drug delivery.

The concept of muco-adhesive systems has fascinated many investigators to the possible use of various polymers, which can overcome physiological barriers in long-term drug delivery. They render the treatment more effective and safe for local disorders and systemic problems.

Presence of a smooth and relatively immobile surface for placement of a bio-adhesive dosage form has made oral route more suitable for sustained delivery of therapeutic agents using muco-adhesive systems.

Drugs with short biological half-lives, requiring a sustained effect, poor permeability, sensitivity to enzymatic degradation and poor solubility can be successfully delivered via oral mucosal route. The dosage forms include adhesive tablets, adhesive gels, adhesive patches and ointments.

[TheGame46]

In vivo methods were first originated by Beckett and Triggs (62) with the so-called buccal absorption test. Using this method, the kinetics of drug absorption were measured. The methodology involves the swirling of a 25 ml sample of the test solution for up to 15 minutes by human volunteers followed by the expulsion of the solution. The amount of drug remaining in the expelled volume is then determined in order to assess the amount of drug absorbed. The drawbacks of this method include salivary dilution of the drug, accidental swallowing of a portion of the sample solution, and the inability to localize the drug solution within a specific site (buccal, sublingual, or gingival) of the oral cavity. Various modifications of the buccal absorption test have been carried out (63-66) correcting for salivary dilution and accidental swallowing, but these modifications also suffer from the inability of site localization. A feasible approach to achieve absorption site localization is to retain the drug on the buccal mucosa using a bioadhesive system (67-69). Pharmacokinetic parameters such as bioavailability can then be calculated from the plasma concentration vs. time profile.

[TheGame46]

Delivery of bioactive peptides and proteins across oral (buccal) mucosa.

Senel S, Kremer M, Nagy K, Squier C.

Hacettepe University, Faculty of Pharmacy, Department of Pharmaceutical Technology, Ankara, Turkey.

The identification of an increasing array of highly potent, endogenous peptide and protein factors termed cytokines, that can be efficiently synthesized using recombinant DNA technology, offers exciting new approaches for drug therapy. However, the physico-chemical and biological properties of these agents impose limitations in formulation and development of optimum drug delivery systems as well as on the routes of delivery. Oral mucosa, including the lining of the cheek (buccal mucosa), floor of mouth and underside of tongue (sublingual mucosa) and gingival mucosa, has received much attention in the last decade because it offers excellent accessibility, is not easily traumatized and avoids degradation of proteins and peptides that occurs as a result of oral administration, gastrointestinal absorption and first-pass hepatic metabolism. Peptide absorption occurs across oral mucosa by passive diffusion and it is unlikely that there is a carrier-mediated transport mechanism. The principal pathway is probably via the intercellular route where the major permeability barrier is represented by organized array of neutral lipids in the superficial layers of the epithelium. The relative role of aqueous as opposed to the lipid pathway in drug transport is still under investigation; penetration is not necessarily enhanced by simply increasing lipophilicity, for other effects, such as charge and molecular size, also play an important role in absorption of peptide and protein drugs. Depending on the pharmacodynamics of the peptides, various oral mucosal delivery systems can be designed. Delivery of peptide/protein drugs by conventional means such as solutions has some limitations. The possibility of excluding a major part of drug from absorption by involuntary swallowing and the continuous dilution due to salivary flow limits a controlled release. However these limitations can be overcome by adhesive dosage forms such as gels, films, tablets, and patches. They can localize the formulation and improve the contact with the mucosal surface to improve absorption of peptides and proteins. Addition of absorption promoters/permeabilizers in bioadhesive dosage forms will be essential for a successful peptide/protein delivery system.

[TheGame46]

Bioadhesive-based dosage forms: The next generation
Jin Whan Lee, Jae Han Park, Joseph R. Robinson *
School of Pharmacy, University of Wisconsin, 425 N. Charter Street, Madison, Wisconsin 53706
email: Joseph R. Robinson (jrrobinson@pharmacy.wisc.edu)

*Correspondence to Joseph R. Robinson, School of Pharmacy, University of Wisconsin, 425 N. Charter Street, Madison, Wisconsin 53706; Telephone: 608-262-7968; fax: 608-262-4054

Abstract
Prolonged contact time of a drug with a body tissue, through the use of a bioadhesive polymer, can significantly improve the performance of many drugs. These improvements range from better treatment of local pathologies to improved drug bioavailability and controlled release to enhanced patient compliance. There are abundant examples in the literature over the past 15 years of these improvements using first generation or off-the-shelf bioadhesive polymers. The present mini-review will remind us of the success achieved with these first-generation polymers and focus on proposals for the next-generation polymers and attendant benefits likely to occur with these improved polymeric systems. © 2000 Wiley-Liss, Inc. and the American Pharmaceutical Association J Pharm Sci 89: 850-866, 2000

[TheGame46]

Abstract
Insulin-loaded polymer (ILP) microparticles composed of poly(methacrylic acid) and poly(ethylene glycol), which have pH-
dependent complexation and mucoadhesive properties have been thought to be potential carriers for insulin via an oral route.
Nevertheless, further optimization of the polymer delivery system is required to improve clinical application. Therefore, the
effect of particle size of the ILP (L-ILP: 180–230 Am, S-ILP: 43–89 Am, SS-ILP: < 43 Am) on insulin absorption was studied
in the in situ loop system, hypothesizing smaller particle sizes of ILP could induce bigger hypoglycemic effects due to increase
mucoadhesive capacity. To verify the hypothesis, the adhesive capacities of differently sized ILPs to the mucosal tissues were
evaluated. Additionally, the intestinal site-specificity of ILP for insulin absorption was investigated. Intra- and inter-cellular
integrity and/or damage were also examined by lactate dehydrogenase leakage and membrane electrical resistance change to
ensure the safety of ILP as a carrier for oral route. As hypothesized, the smaller sized microparticles (SS-ILP) showed a rapid
burst-type insulin release and higher insulin absorption compared with the microparticles having larger sizes, resulting in greater
hypoglycemic effects without detectable mucosal damage. In fact, SS-ILP demonstrated higher mucoadhesive capacity to the
jejunum and the ileum than those of L-ILP. Moreover, SS-ILP’s enhancement effect of insulin mucosal absorption showed a
site-specificity, demonstrating maximum effect at the ileal segment. These results imply that the particle size and delivery site
are very important factors for ILP with respect to increasing the bioavailability of insulin following oral administration.
D 2004 Elsevier B.V. All rights reserved.

[surazal]

interesting ... thanks for the post, Game


i wonder about a mist absorption like an inhaler for asthmatics

also wonder what benefits HGH mist absorption would have for asthma?


just rambling ... thanks again.

[Grunt76]

Ok, so then where is your documented proof? If you can produce that then maybe some would consider believing it or using the product.
If AP did and experiment on the compoound I stand behind his findings 100%.

Where is *YOUR* proof?

[norm240lbs]

I would never buy IGF from IBE. Heard nothing but bad things about it.


Ok L.W. now you can hear some good things about IBE. You guys know I'm not one to bullshit anybody. I have been using their injectable IGF-1 for about a month now, following AP's 3 day per week protocol and I'm VERY happy so far.

My pumps last longer, I feel fuller for days after training a bodypart and I'm leaning out even though I have not changed my diet. Their injectables work. If I'm lazy about getting my carbs in after a shot I get hypoglycimic, so I know this stuff is the real deal.

I have no experience with using IBE's oral product so I can't say much about it. But I trust what theGame and IBE say about the product and here is why-

The folks at IBE are a stand up group of guys. I contacted them for some information regarding a tragic accident that happened to someone close to me and the possible theraputic uses of one of their products.

The quickness of their reply, compassion, kindness and sound advice all amazed me. They did not try to sell me anything. As a matter of fact they told me that the product I was thinking about treating him with was not a good choice and explained why. They have gained a life long customer, I will not by anything they sell from anyone else.

The bottom line is they are good people and if they say the oral delivery system works I believe them, especialy when the studies backing these claims are posted.

[TheGame46]

I asked AP about this, here is what he had to say
"Well, I for one never said it was garbage. So whoever you heard that from was not from me. In fact I never got around to writing my report. So any news you have heard is pure speculation.

__________________
Formerly known as Almost Pro"

[surazal]

I asked AP about this, here is what he had to say
"Well, I for one never said it was garbage. So whoever you heard that from was not from me. In fact I never got around to writing my report. So any news you have heard is pure speculation.

__________________
Formerly known as Almost Pro"

any plans for a test/report?

[TheGame46]

Yes I will be doing some blood test shortly

[Gavin Kane]

I will post my report soon. I never got around to it on the old bolex board before we went down.

Cool your jets guys, I will post what I found and what I did in the lab as well. Their delivery system is top notch, if in fact it is really used in their products. That remains to be seen as the licensing rights belong to insulin groups right now, not supplement companies.

[thepopo]

If anyone would like to read some logs done on boards totally unrelated to IBE, check out bb.com in the supplement section. JPME, Freebirdbulker, and Slated are all respected members of the community running logs of our products.

[surazal]

If anyone would like to read some logs done on boards totally unrelated to IBE, check out bb.com in the supplement section. JPME, Freebirdbulker, and Slated are all respected members of the community running logs of our products.
thanks ... i'll check it out.

[surazal]

well those logs are a nice start ... but not really complete.


anyone know of somebody who's actually had a blood test to verify increased levels of IGF-1 after using oratropin-1?

someone not employed by IBE ...

[LuvMuhRoids]

nice information game

[TheGame46]

well those logs are a nice start ... but not really complete.


anyone know of somebody who's actually had a blood test to verify increased levels of IGF-1 after using oratropin-1?

someone not employed by IBE ...

I think someone on AM might be doing it soon as well.

[surazal]

just ordered some .... *cross fingers*