IGF and HGH Together?

[nxt2g]

Have done 1 previous cycle of HGH for about 5 months and loved it. Question is there any benefit of using HGH and IGF together at the same time. I ask this because i read an article in the new Muscular Development that said they both work best used together but doesnt HGH just help your body produce IGF? I am no expert in IGF and want to learn everything i can before I jump right in. thanks for the advice.:Banane38:

[AWESOME1]

Have done 1 previous cycle of HGH for about 5 months and loved it. Question is there any benefit of using HGH and IGF together at the same time. I ask this because i read an article in the new Muscular Development that said they both work best used together but doesnt HGH just help your body produce IGF? I am no expert in IGF and want to learn everything i can before I jump right in. thanks for the advice.:Banane38:


There is a very potent synergy effect when stacking the 2.
This synergy effect enables the user to also use less of each then per normal

[Gavin Kane]

The conversion to igf by gh is very minimal but that's what is producing most of the gains we are experiencing in gh. As stated by awesome, the synergy is incredible, igf sort of super charges your gh.

It is important to utilize proper timing on the gh and igf. I take my gh pwo and then 20mins later take my igf. Reason is that gh has a very, very short half life of around 17-20mins and when it has peaked with its conversion to igf, you inject more igf to continue the cell saturation and growth.

[powerdrive]

Reason is that gh has a very, very short half life of around 17-20minsThis confuses me. I'm reading the manufacturer's information sheet of Serostim. It says:
Subcutaneous Absorption: The absolute bioavailability of Serostim® [somatropin (rDNA origin) for injection] after subcutaneous administration of a formulation not equivalent to the marketed formulation was determined to be 70-90%. The t½ (Mean ± SD) after subcutaneous administration is significantly longer than that seen after intravenous administration to normal male volunteers, down-regulated with somatostatin (3.94 ± 3.44 hrs. vs. 0.58 ± 0.08 hrs.), indicating that the subcutaneous absorption of the clinically tested formulation of the compound is slow and rate-limiting. ...and elsewhere:
Elimination: The t½ (Mean ± SD) in nine patients with AIDS related wasting with an average weight of 56.7 ± 6.8 kg, given a fixed dose of 6.0 mg r-hGH subcutaneously was 4.28 ± 2.15 hrs.
It seems that this is saying that the average half life of GH is somewhere near four hours. Alright this is in sick people, but is it really that much different for the rest of us? Or am I reading this all wrong?

PD

[nxt2g]

thx for the advise so far...keep the thread rolling cause i wanna here more info into this.

[Super Man]

ive found it best to do a shot of gh preworkout with a light meal, then igf postworkout. havent tried the two right after each other though might have to try it next time. that would probably mean 2x a day shots then instead of one

[TheFollistatin]

edit: Oh... never mind with my crazy thoughts.

I did IGf-1 and HGH together and LOVED it.

ONly did it for 5-6 weeks but the result were amazing...not sure what I attriute to IGF-1, what to HGH, and what to doing sust the last two weeks EOD.

[Gavin Kane]

This confuses me. I'm reading the manufacturer's information sheet of Serostim. It says:
...and elsewhere:

It seems that this is saying that the average half life of GH is somewhere near four hours. Alright this is in sick people, but is it really that much different for the rest of us? Or am I reading this all wrong?

PD
Well first off, I take my gh IM instead of sub-q pwo for that very reason. I want it into the cells as fast as possible and fatty tissue will only slow my release times. And yes, sick people with down-regulated immune systems have lower response times.

I can show you massive amounts of published studies that cite the half life of gh as 16-19 mins.

[AWESOME1]

edit: Oh... never mind with my crazy thoughts.

I did IGf-1 and HGH together and LOVED it.

ONly did it for 5-6 weeks but the result were amazing...not sure what I attriute to IGF-1, what to HGH, and what to doing sust the last two weeks EOD.

Definetly right there, love the 2 together. The results of stacking the 2 are far better then just using each on its own. The advantage is you can use less of each and 'yield" a far greater overall result. This is known as synergy...

[AWESOME1]

Well first off, I take my gh IM instead of sub-q pwo for that very reason. I want it into the cells as fast as possible and fatty tissue will only slow my release times. And yes, sick people with down-regulated immune systems have lower response times.

I can show you massive amounts of published studies that cite the half life of gh as 16-19 mins.


Yes Gavin is spot on regarding fatty tissue "dramatically" slowing down both absorbtion rate and release rate....

[nxt2g]

if the doses together are less then usual what would you recommend?

[nxt2g]

btw i usually take 6iu day of HGH (3iu 2x daily) and this will be a first for IGF

[huey]

wouldnt shooting the igf 20 minutes later, when the hgh is being broken down into Igf flood the body with to much IGF at the one time, wouldnt it be more beneficial to space the shots out so that recptors arent over saturated at the one time just a thought,

[nxt2g]

this is a good debate im glad we started. i dont wanna jump into this half ass

[Grunt76]

Yes Gavin is spot on regarding fatty tissue "dramatically" slowing down both absorbtion rate and release rate....
That is the reason why diabetics inject insulin sub-q only. It gives them some time to react or for the ambulance to get there if they OD. If they did it IM, it would hit so hard, survival from OD's would be drastically reduced.

As GH and slin are both peptides, one may draw conclusions about GH from this.

[Gavin Kane]

wouldnt shooting the igf 20 minutes later, when the hgh is being broken down into Igf flood the body with to much IGF at the one time, wouldnt it be more beneficial to space the shots out so that recptors arent over saturated at the one time just a thought,
This is why I recommend you read my sticky on igf use, located just above this thread. I recommend using small doses infrequently so as not to oversaturate the cells. I recommend a lower dose than most do, just taken more frequently throughout the day and not as many days. Please take time to read and understand my sticky, it outlines the whole protocol.

[powerdrive]

Well first off, I take my gh IM instead of sub-q pwo for that very reason. I want it into the cells as fast as possible and fatty tissue will only slow my release times.According to the NIH website (link) (http://www.aidsinfo.nih.gov/DrugsNew/DrugDetailT.aspx?MenuItem=Drugs&int_id=327&Search=Off&ClassID=&TypeID=), subcutaneous or intramuscular administration makes no difference to the half life, 3 to 5 hours:
Serum half-life after IV injection is approximately 20 to 30 minutes. After intramuscular (IM) or SQ injection, serum concentrations decline, with a half-life of approximately 3 to 5 hours. This decline reflects continued release of the hormone from the injection site. Approximate duration of action of somatropin is 12 to 48 hours.Am I reading this wrong again?
I can show you massive amounts of published studies that cite the half life of gh as 16-19 mins.Please do. So far, all the information I can find says about half an hour for IV, and about 4 hours for SQ and IM.

PD

[Gavin Kane]

http://www.neurosci.pharm.utoledo.edu/MBC3320/GH.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1348664&dopt=Abstract
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/75/6/1487
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/80/11/3279
http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/cgi/content/abstract/128/3/369
http://www.ualberta.ca/~csps/JPPS1(3)/H.Boxenbaum/Flip-Boxenbaum.pdf

Yes some of those studies are IV, but some are sub-q and IM. Those are just abstracts. I cannot publish the whole link because it has my pass code on it for my access to online med articles.

I think you guys are very confused and are seriously mixing up peak blood level concentrations which peak at 2-4 hours and half life which is listed everywhere in almost every study as a max of 20-30 minutes. Since you are not scientists I will cut you some slack but you really need to educate yourselves before you start to challenge people on things you do not have a full understanding of.

[nxt2g]

well said

[surazal]

if IGF-1 and HGH work so well together and HGH is produce during the first hour of your sleep ...


... then wouldn't taking IGF-1 before you go to sleep be optimal for healing and recovery?

[powerdrive]

Thanks for those links, Gavin.

It is exactly BECAUSE OF my scientific training that I always look for the data behind a claim.

Four out of the six studies that you hyperlinked are available online without a pass code. I have read them, and found that they have nothing to say about IM administration of GH.

The Toledo page does not specify the method of administration. It's an overview and not really a study. The Flip-Boxenbaum paper compares IV and SQ (in dogs), showing a GH half life of hours for SQ administration, mere minutes for IV. Both the Lanzi-Andreotti and the Sohmiya-Kato studies discuss IV exclusively.

I don't think I'm confusing peak levels and half life. Why do you think I did? Regarding 'educating myself' and 'not having a full understanding': that's why I'm searching and reading.

And about 'challenging people' - I do not mean to challenge any person. I'm only questioning the claim that IM administered GH has a half life of 20~30 minutes. Nothing personal.

PD

[Gavin Kane]

Something for you to ponder PD. The only difference in sub-q, IV, and IM is the amount of time a product takes to get into the bloodstream, with IV obviously being the fastest. Once any method enters the bloodstream and the product is circulating, there will be no difference in half-life. Half life is determined from blood levels not from release times.

So if you want a product to release slower, go sub-q, if you want it faster, go IM or IV but once in the system, that is when you measure half-life and all times are the same, no matter the method. That is why I think you are confusing with peak blood levels.

Each method will reach a different time frame for peak blood levels to accumulate and that is why each method will have anywhere from 13mins up to 6 hours. Half-life is half-life and does not change from method of administration.

[Grunt76]

That's right it doesn't change with method of administration.

However...

It will change between test subjects.
It will change between metabolic states in the same test subject.

For example with IGF-1, the half-life will be significantly shorter if injected immediately after an intense whole-body workout than if injected, say, in the morning. It will simply be taken up by receptors quicker. So in this instance, diminishing blood levels mean something entirely different than degradation and metabolization.

Just to point out a few details.

[2Sick]

Gavin....The Broncos?? C'mon,lol

I guess this year I will be going for the Browns since they just signed one of my brothers!!

See you tomorrow afternoon Bro.

[Gavin Kane]

Not tomorrow knucklehead......Sat afternoon. I have to work. I will meet you guys for lunch.

[Gavin Kane]

That's right it doesn't change with method of administration.

However...

It will change between test subjects.
It will change between metabolic states in the same test subject.

For example with IGF-1, the half-life will be significantly shorter if injected immediately after an intense whole-body workout than if injected, say, in the morning. It will simply be taken up by receptors quicker. So in this instance, diminishing blood levels mean something entirely different than degradation and metabolization.

Just to point out a few details.
Excellent point Grunt. Hence the reason some studies show half-life as 13mins up to 19mins always +/- because you cannot account for that. Each subject will be slightly different.

I was just trying to keep this as simple as possible so people can understand what I am getting at without having to get to deep. You being a scientist understand this, of course.

Good info though.

[Big Bapper]

Thanks for the links Gavin, I have been using AP method for stacking HGH/IGF/Slin for 2 months now and am loving the results.

[sammarbella]

About HGH halflife i copy/paste from my reply in an other post:

Exogenous 20K Growth Hormone ( GH) Suppresses Endogenous 22K GH Secretion in Normal Men

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/2/601

This is a well-know study(extract):

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Results

Physiological 24-h secretion profiles of serum 20K- and 22K-hGH

Fig. 1 shows the 24-h profiles of serum 20K- and 22K- GH levels in a representative subject for each of the groups. In the placebo group (Fig. 1A), a large degree of variability was noted between subjects, and the secretion profiles of endogenous 20K- and 22K-hGH were typical pulsatile (17) and similar to each other. The proportion of 20K-hGH to 22K-hGH was fairly constant (ca. 5%). In the 20K-hGH-treated groups (Fig. 1, B-E), serum 20K-hGH levels increased within 30 min after injection, reached a peak between 2 and 6 h, and decreased by the end of the sampling period.In contrast, the spontaneous 22K-hGH surges were suppressed after a delay of a few hours after injection, especially at higher doses.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Take a look at the figure 1...

[Gavin Kane]

Again Sammarbella you are using an abstract that refers to peak blood levels of gh. Same thing I keep saying, you are all confused what the difference is.

[sammarbella]

Again Sammarbella you are using an abstract that refers to peak blood levels of gh. Same thing I keep saying, you are all confused what the difference is.

Upps!You are right.:madgrin:

I confused half-life with endogenous HGH suppression period.

[nxt2g]

lets all call it like it is now, AP is right as usual!

[nxt2g]

oh wait im sorry, gavin is right

btw- the best football game i was ever at was last years giants/broncos when the giants mounted one of the greatest 4th quarter come backs to beat your broncos! AHH HA!

[Gavin Kane]

Damn you nxt2g, that game killed me. 6 secs left for a solid win number 6 in a row and those damn Giants ruined it with a last second drive. I hate the Giants, Eli Manning is a part time woman.

[nxt2g]

i'll tell u what, shannahan killed you by being to conservative in the end trying to kill the clock and went 3 and out. I loved every minute of it! and eli might just be a part time woman....