good dose of arimidiex while on anadrol?

[Kalika]

I have yet to try either products, i have 30 1mg pills and I was thinking .5mgs eod to keep bloat down? what do you think?

[Xanthine]

Originally Posted by Kalika

I have yet to try either products, i have 30 1mg pills and I was thinking .5mgs eod to keep bloat down? what do you think?

I am going to quote Bill Roberts Phd on this: note this is NOT that douche bag Anthony Roberts.
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/steroid...es/anadrol.htm

Contrary to what many bodybuilders expect of it, the drug can be mild in terms of side effects when no aromatizing steroids are present.

Nonetheless, when oxymetholone is used in a cycle yielding high estrogen levels, it is notorious for worsening apparently-estrogenic symptoms. This may be from its producing progestagenic symptoms which are easily confused as being estrogenic; from altering estrogen metabolism; by upregulating aromatase; or perhaps by increasing prolactin. The actual cause is not proven.

It is primarily in the context of usage in high-estrogen circumstances that Anadrol has earned a reputation of being a harsh drug. An example such use would be combination with high-dose testosterone without an aromatase inhibitor. Most do not find it harsh when there are no concurrent problems with high estrogen.

Regardless of being non-aromatizable, in those who have developed gynecomastia already Anadrol can be an aggravating agent, even with estrogen levels kept normal. It may also be a causative agent.

[Xanthine]

So, in short, Arimidex is not going to keep the bloat from Anadrol down. However, if you are using Testosterone with the Anadrol, then using Arimidex at 0.5mg, 3 x a week will prevent the high estrogen environment that Anadrol seems to worsen. Without the estrogenic bloat from the Test, your overall bloat will be down.

[Kalika]

Originally Posted by Xanthine

I am going to quote Bill Roberts Phd on this: note this is NOT that douche bag Anthony Roberts.
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/steroid...es/anadrol.htm

I still have plenty of prami on hand as well. I think i will continue taking that at .5mls ed when using drol.

[paradroid]

I disagree with Bill Roberts on this one. Anadrol being progestagenic is totally unproven, and there is scientific data saying that the reverse is true and it is not progestagenic at all, even test is more prog. It may be that some of it's metabolite are prog but i don't see it...

Anadrol gets metabolized in the body to methyl test and mestanolone (mainly) and the amounts of each are highly variable between individuals... however any amount of methyl test produced gets aromatized to 17am estradiol and it's a hugely powerful estrogen.

Bill Roberts is wrong on these counts...

oxymethelone itself doesn't aromatize, however it's metabolites do, and very strongly. Expect estrogenic sides.

oxymethelone is not progestagenic and despite what he says it is published scientific data.

It's not a mild drug, plenty of data on this too, effects on blood sugar and insulin levels, liver, sodium balance etc.

Kalika, you can run anadrol and be safe from estrogenic sides by running an AI with it... however a good deal of the effects of anadrol are mediated by it's estrogenic component, water retention, glycogen storage, etc... If you're going to use it but knock out the estrogen i don't see the point, you'd be better off running dbol... Or straight mestanolone in order to get the androgenic effects of increased recovery, strength increase, improved CNS etc.

[Kalika]

Originally Posted by paradroid

I disagree with Bill Roberts on this one. Anadrol being progestagenic is totally unproven, and there is scientific data saying that the reverse is true and it is not progestagenic at all, even test is more prog. It may be that some of it's metabolite are prog but i don't see it...

Anadrol gets metabolized in the body to methyl test and mestanolone (mainly) and the amounts of each are highly variable between individuals... however any amount of methyl test produced gets aromatized to 17am estradiol and it's a hugely powerful estrogen.

Bill Roberts is wrong on these counts...

oxymethelone itself doesn't aromatize, however it's metabolites do, and very strongly. Expect estrogenic sides.

oxymethelone is not progestagenic and despite what he says it is published scientific data.

It's not a mild drug, plenty of data on this too, effects on blood sugar and insulin levels, liver, sodium balance etc.

Kalika, you can run anadrol and be safe from estrogenic sides by running an AI with it... however a good deal of the effects of anadrol are mediated by it's estrogenic component, water retention, glycogen storage, etc... If you're going to use it but knock out the estrogen i don't see the point, you'd be better off running dbol... Or straight mestanolone in order to get the androgenic effects of increased recovery, strength increase, improved CNS etc.

droid....I have just read everywhere drol makes you bow up like a ballon. I am running it with a cyp/eq combo. 125mgs of cyp and 75mgs of eq in 20ml vials. So I bought some a dex just in case i retain a lot of water weight and look like a bloated puffer fish while taking drol, which I don't want.

I have never done anadrol but also have read of guys running both......dbol and drol the first 3 to 4 weeks drol then next 3 to 4 dbol.

also, would prami work with drol like it does with tren?

[Xanthine]

Originally Posted by paradroid

I disagree with Bill Roberts on this one. Anadrol being progestagenic is totally unproven, and there is scientific data saying that the reverse is true and it is not progestagenic at all, even test is more prog. It may be that some of it's metabolite are prog but i don't see it...

Anadrol gets metabolized in the body to methyl test and mestanolone (mainly) and the amounts of each are highly variable between individuals... however any amount of methyl test produced gets aromatized to 17am estradiol and it's a hugely powerful estrogen.

Bill Roberts is wrong on these counts...

oxymethelone itself doesn't aromatize, however it's metabolites do, and very strongly. Expect estrogenic sides.

oxymethelone is not progestagenic and despite what he says it is published scientific data.

It's not a mild drug, plenty of data on this too, effects on blood sugar and insulin levels, liver, sodium balance etc.

Thanks for that mate. The article I quoted is a bit old (Arimidex had just hit the market when it was written!)

What do you think about his speculation on altering estrogen metabolism and/ or upregulating aromatase?

[Kalika]

Originally Posted by Xanthine

So, in short, Arimidex is not going to keep the bloat from Anadrol down. However, if you are using Testosterone with the Anadrol, then using Arimidex at 0.5mg, 3 x a week will prevent the high estrogen environment that Anadrol seems to worsen. Without the estrogenic bloat from the Test, your overall bloat will be down.

thanks mate. i will be running drol with a test/cyp combo. so .5mgs 3x a week is what I'll shoot for. thanks again brother.

[spl6hrc]

Originally Posted by paradroid

.

Kalika, you can run anadrol and be safe from estrogenic sides by running an AI with it... however a good deal of the effects of anadrol are mediated by it's estrogenic component, water retention, glycogen storage, etc... If you're going to use it but knock out the estrogen i don't see the point, you'd be better off running dbol... Or straight mestanolone in order to get the androgenic effects of increased recovery, strength increase, improved CNS etc.

I agree with this. There is a reason to take anadrol and dbol, generally it involves strength and mass. If you're looking for different results use a different compound. Anavar, turnibol, etc. Using the right tool makes the job easier, don't try to drive a screw with a hammer and vice versa. JMO

[Kalika]

Originally Posted by spl6hrc

I agree with this. There is a reason to take anadrol and dbol, generally it involves strength and mass. If you're looking for different results use a different compound. Anavar, turnibol, etc. Using the right tool makes the job easier, don't try to drive a screw with a hammer and vice versa. JMO

word. I see your point. thanks pimp

[paradroid]

Originally Posted by Xanthine

Thanks for that mate. The article I quoted is a bit old (Arimidex had just hit the market when it was written!)

What do you think about his speculation on altering estrogen metabolism and/ or upregulating aromatase?

I kinda see what he's getting at, and this would explain the estrogenic effects of oxymetholone when the compound itself is not estrogenic, and that AI's can counteract this.... However, there is already an explaination that has been proved (probably after he wrote this article). People using oxymetholone typically show low levels in the blood and high levels of methyl test and mestanolone, showing that it's rapidly metabolized to these compounds (and others) and it's the methyl test getting aromatized that's responsible for the estrogenic effects. AI's can be effectively used to reduce the estrogenic effect of anadrol.
It's for these reasons that i don't like anadrol, because the hydroxymethylene at the 2 position has to be cleaved off metabolically giving a range of active products, you can get a wide range of responses across individuals. It's a really messy drug, and i'm sure there is more to this story than this...

[Kalika]

Originally Posted by paradroid

I disagree with Bill Roberts on this one. Anadrol being progestagenic is totally unproven, and there is scientific data saying that the reverse is true and it is not progestagenic at all, even test is more prog. It may be that some of it's metabolite are prog but i don't see it...

Anadrol gets metabolized in the body to methyl test and mestanolone (mainly) and the amounts of each are highly variable between individuals... however any amount of methyl test produced gets aromatized to 17am estradiol and it's a hugely powerful estrogen.

Bill Roberts is wrong on these counts...

oxymethelone itself doesn't aromatize, however it's metabolites do, and very strongly. Expect estrogenic sides.

oxymethelone is not progestagenic and despite what he says it is published scientific data.

It's not a mild drug, plenty of data on this too, effects on blood sugar and insulin levels, liver, sodium balance etc.

Kalika, you can run anadrol and be safe from estrogenic sides by running an AI with it... however a good deal of the effects of anadrol are mediated by it's estrogenic component, water retention, glycogen storage, etc... If you're going to use it but knock out the estrogen i don't see the point, you'd be better off running dbol... Or straight mestanolone in order to get the androgenic effects of increased recovery, strength increase, improved CNS etc.

so this test eq drol cycle do not run an AI droid unless needed?

[Kalika]

Originally Posted by paradroid

I kinda see what he's getting at, and this would explain the estrogenic effects of oxymetholone when the compound itself is not estrogenic, and that AI's can counteract this.... However, there is already an explaination that has been proved (probably after he wrote this article). People using oxymetholone typically show low levels in the blood and high levels of methyl test and mestanolone, showing that it's rapidly metabolized to these compounds (and others) and it's the methyl test getting aromatized that's responsible for the estrogenic effects. AI's can be effectively used to reduce the estrogenic effect of anadrol.
It's for these reasons that i don't like anadrol, because the hydroxymethylene at the 2 position has to be cleaved off metabolically giving a range of active products, you can get a wide range of responses across individuals. It's a really messy drug, and i'm sure there is more to this story than this...

should have went with tbol. been wanting to use that forever now or regular anabols. oh well. i'll try the drol. i have 50 anapolans. I may get some dbol as well and run both at mild doses.

[paradroid]

Originally Posted by Kalika

should have went with tbol. been wanting to use that forever now or regular anabols. oh well. i'll try the drol. i have 50 anapolans. I may get some dbol as well and run both at mild doses.

See if you can swap it or just run it and see what you get... it's a great drug for bulk, no question and you may well respond well to it, but expect a lot of water. I wouldn't use the arimidex unless you think you are getting a problem either with gyno or ridiculous amounts of water retention, blood pressure etc.

[Kalika]

Originally Posted by paradroid

See if you can swap it or just run it and see what you get... it's a great drug for bulk, no question and you may well respond well to it, but expect a lot of water. I wouldn't use the arimidex unless you think you are getting a problem either with gyno or ridiculous amounts of water retention, blood pressure etc.

the pack is out already. I'll try it or may just get some dbol and run both. who knows. i got 50 anapolans so i may just eat em up. to hell with it. I am stacking it with a cyp/eq combo. 125mgs of cyp and 75mgs of eq in a 20ml vial. I think i'll run 1 cc eod or 1.5ccs eod..

[macro]

well, lets just look at this from the tail end. Since thats where the user is dealing with it.

AI's do not work with anadrol, if it has estrogenic metabolites they are likely via 3betahsd.

anadrol side effects DO respond to pramipexole and cabergoline, prolactin suppressor.

anadrol is a potent androgen, cns strength gains that highly indicate progestenic activity (more androgenic usually means more PGR activity). Since they are methyls the will tend to bind to sites other than the AR (such modulatory/agonist/antagonist activity is unpredictable)-- though would say given sides its more likely that its a PgR agonist. Though would say its also likely that it does have some E metabolites just not via aromatase.

as a note find it rather hilarious that Bill all of a sudden has come to the mountain, guess after having others use macro's writing to bash him over the head he came to his senses on the PRL and PGR issue (well at least sort of).

stick with the prami (and will take credit for it)

[Xanthine]

Originally Posted by macro

well, lets just look at this from the tail end. Since thats where the user is dealing with it.

AI's do not work with anadrol, if it has estrogenic metabolites they are likely via 3betahsd.

anadrol side effects DO respond to pramipexole and cabergoline, prolactin suppressor.

anadrol is a potent androgen, cns strength gains that highly indicate progestenic activity (more androgenic usually means more PGR activity). Since they are methyls the will tend to bind to sites other than the AR (such modulatory/agonist/antagonist activity is unpredictable)-- though would say given sides its more likely that its a PgR agonist. Though would say its also likely that it does have some E metabolites just not via aromatase.

as a note find it rather hilarious that Bill all of a sudden has come to the mountain, guess after having others use macro's writing to bash him over the head he came to his senses on the PRL and PGR issue (well at least sort of).

stick with the prami (and will take credit for it)

Um...Bill's article was written about 10 years ago mate.
If you are a writer who has debated with him over time then why not let us know who you are.

I brought Bill's writing to this thread, not Robert's himself to be fair.

stick with the prami (and will take credit for it)

No one even knew what this was when this was written.

[paradroid]

Originally Posted by macro

well, lets just look at this from the tail end. Since thats where the user is dealing with it.

AI's do not work with anadrol, if it has estrogenic metabolites they are likely via 3betahsd.

anadrol side effects DO respond to pramipexole and cabergoline, prolactin suppressor.

anadrol is a potent androgen, cns strength gains that highly indicate progestenic activity (more androgenic usually means more PGR activity). Since they are methyls the will tend to bind to sites other than the AR (such modulatory/agonist/antagonist activity is unpredictable)-- though would say given sides its more likely that its a PgR agonist. Though would say its also likely that it does have some E metabolites just not via aromatase.

as a note find it rather hilarious that Bill all of a sudden has come to the mountain, guess after having others use macro's writing to bash him over the head he came to his senses on the PRL and PGR issue (well at least sort of).

stick with the prami (and will take credit for it)

Sorry mate, but you are wrong. AI's DO work with anadrol, ask anyone who has tried it and/or check the scientific literiture. Anadrol is not progestagenic, this is more published scientific data. Some of it's metabolites are moderately progestagenic (methyl test) and some actually downregulate the PGR (mestanolone)... overall there is little to worry about with prolactin based sides, and again there is published data on this, with a few exceptions anadrol users typically don't have significantly raised prolactin levels.

If you did write an article on this, then it's a minimum of 10 years out of date, and i'll credit that as why what you've written is so wrong. I suggest you do some more research and stop congratulating yourself.

[macro]

Originally Posted by Xanthine

Um...Bill's article was written about 10 years ago mate.
If you are a writer who has debated with him over time then why not let us know who you are.

I brought Bill's writing to this thread, not Robert's himself to be fair.


No one even knew what this was when this was written.

bill's article was updated less than 30 days ago. And the PgR and PRL issue has been in play since 2002, know quite well...... since brought it into discussion at that time in regards to nandrolone and trenbolone. Actually introduced both cabergoline and pramipexole to this community.

[macro]

Originally Posted by paradroid

Sorry mate, but you are wrong. AI's DO work with anadrol, ask anyone who has tried it and/or check the scientific literiture. Anadrol is not progestagenic, this is more published scientific data. Some of it's metabolites are moderately progestagenic (methyl test) and some actually downregulate the PGR (mestanolone)... overall there is little to worry about with prolactin based sides, and again there is published data on this, with a few exceptions anadrol users typically don't have significantly raised prolactin levels.

If you did write an article on this, then it's a minimum of 10 years out of date, and i'll credit that as why what you've written is so wrong. I suggest you do some more research and stop congratulating yourself.

frlol. no they dont. you might mistakenly believe that they do, because of suppression of other conversion. But reductions in water are not due to inhibition of oxymethenolone conversion.

5alpha-androstanes ARE NOT SUBJECT to aromatization.

PgR agonists and antagonists both can cause prolactin issues. PRL issues are of many flavors, prlr upregulation, paracrine and autocrine PRL (with direct and dopamine related impacts- tissue dependant), transcriptional and downstream upregulation of PRLR activity (jak-stat). Basically you can have little increase in PRL but significant increases in the impact of PRL, and just to be clear most men have PRL levels that are elevated (particularly AAS users), anything over 10 is actually very high. Even though the range (ie not a disease state) is up to 17.

feel free to provide "scientific evidence" that oxymetholone is not a progestin. Because pretty much all androgens are progestins. ALL. its just a matter of what kind of affinity, agonist or antagonist- note this can vary a lot between tissues as well as depending on individual receptor expression (and a ton of things can affect that, aside from gender and genetics), how much they suppress natural progesterone, what kind of modulatory and transactivational effects that they have.

mestanolone certainly is not subject to aromatase. it is however subject to 3alpha and 3 beta reduction, just as the parent compound is.

back to the dopamine issue. all androgens pretty much increase dopamine, the main issues from this are in how its metabolized, though site related increases also play in. impacts on mao-a and mao-b are primary factors in prolactogenic issues stemming from androgen use, and particularly whether those issues are acute or chronic.

as a note- just to bring back the drol PgR agonist issue, both drol and nandrolone can maintain pregnancy. If drol was an antagonist it could not. eg- ru-486. You would be wise to see how often the effects of oxymetholone and nandrolone run tandem in in studies that indicate PgR activity (eg pregnancy). Sadly there is little or no published data in this area

[Xanthine]

Originally Posted by macro

bill's article was updated less than 30 days ago.

No it wasn't man. The links to the ebooks were updated then. The article is as it was written years ago. He doesn't write for them any more. No new articles of his have appeared on that site since they were all posted.

I'm not having a go at your information, just there's little to be gained scoring points against an old article...It was my mistake linking it which I have already acknowledged. I have all those old articles of Bill's as PDFs from when they were first put up and there were of great help to many of us back in the day.

Of course science moves on and it was my error in linking an obviously out of date article

[Xanthine]

Originally Posted by macro

bill's article was updated less than 30 days ago. And the PgR and PRL issue has been in play since 2002, know quite well...... since brought it into discussion at that time in regards to nandrolone and trenbolone. Actually introduced both cabergoline and pramipexole to this community.

You keep leaving out pronouns. To be sure here...are you saying that you introduced these to the body-building community? If so, that's fantastic and a lot of guys would be far worse off without your contribution.
So who are you?

[macro]

Originally Posted by Xanthine

No it wasn't man. The links to the ebooks were updated then. The article is as it was written years ago. He doesn't write for them any more.

I'm not having a go at your information, just there's little to be gained scoring points against an old article...It was my mistake linking it which I have already acknowledged.

no. the actual article was updated.

"There is some indirect evidence that this may be from progestagenic activity, as in some cases concurrent use of stanozolol (Winstrol), which has some anti-progestagenic effect, can avoid the problem. Some have also reported cabergoline (Dostinex) usage, which reduces prolactin, to yield a remedy."

this was certainly NOT part of the original. Having read it when it came out. was a member there since 1998 perhaps longer.

Nor was this

"This may be from its producing progestagenic symptoms which are easily confused as being estrogenic; from altering estrogen metabolism; by upregulating aromatase; or perhaps by increasing prolactin. The actual cause is not proven."


whether bill updated it or someone else???

[Xanthine]

You're right. No one was using Dostinex in the general community back then.


If you are who I think you are....it's a pleasure to have you on the board mate.

[macro]

Originally Posted by Xanthine

You keep leaving out pronouns. To be sure here...are you saying that you introduced these to the body-building community? If so, that's fantastic and a lot of guys would be far worse off without your contribution.
So who are you?

macro
aka
macrophage69alpha

and if you wish to verify re; cabergoline... you can search EF, the old anabolicfitness.net site, might have some stuff on AR as well

as far as pramipexole you can be damn sure.. just check afboard.com, steroidology, professional muscle and others..

few give credit where its due, it seems the way of the net to pass of cut and paste as knowledge and creation thereof, though honestly really dont care all that much, prefer to keep a median profile so long as the information ends up doing good.

[macro]

was a member here since near the time of this forum founding, but old account was lost in one of the "attacks" so prevalent in the early part of this decade.

[Xanthine]

Cool. We also had a server crash in 2006 and everyone's accounts were reset.

[paradroid]

Originally Posted by macro

frlol. no they dont. you might mistakenly believe that they do, because of suppression of other conversion. But reductions in water are not due to inhibition of oxymethenolone conversion.

5alpha-androstanes ARE NOT SUBJECT to aromatization.

PgR agonists and antagonists both can cause prolactin issues. PRL issues are of many flavors, prlr upregulation, paracrine and autocrine PRL (with direct and dopamine related impacts- tissue dependant), transcriptional and downstream upregulation of PRLR activity (jak-stat). Basically you can have little increase in PRL but significant increases in the impact of PRL, and just to be clear most men have PRL levels that are elevated (particularly AAS users), anything over 10 is actually very high. Even though the range (ie not a disease state) is up to 17.

feel free to provide "scientific evidence" that oxymetholone is not a progestin. Because pretty much all androgens are progestins. ALL. its just a matter of what kind of affinity, agonist or antagonist- note this can vary a lot between tissues as well as depending on individual receptor expression (and a ton of things can affect that, aside from gender and genetics), how much they suppress natural progesterone, what kind of modulatory and transactivational effects that they have.

mestanolone certainly is not subject to aromatase. it is however subject to 3alpha and 3 beta reduction, just as the parent compound is.

back to the dopamine issue. all androgens pretty much increase dopamine, the main issues from this are in how its metabolized, though site related increases also play in. impacts on mao-a and mao-b are primary factors in prolactogenic issues stemming from androgen use, and particularly whether those issues are acute or chronic.

as a note- just to bring back the drol PgR agonist issue, both drol and nandrolone can maintain pregnancy. If drol was an antagonist it could not. eg- ru-486. You would be wise to see how often the effects of oxymetholone and nandrolone run tandem in in studies that indicate PgR activity (eg pregnancy). Sadly there is little or no published data in this area

Read my posts again. I'm not saying that 5 alpha reduced steroids are subject to aromatization. Oxymetholone is subject to enzymatic cleaveage of the 2 hydroxymethylene group which yeilds (mainly) methyl test and mestanolone. The methyl test is responsible for the estrogenic sides. Methyl test also is an agonist of the PgR, however it is not significant compared to trenbolone or nandrolone and is about 2 fold of that of test. Again, i didn't say that all androgens are not progestins, so please read my posts again. And i didn't say that anadrol was an antagonist of the PgR... It is a weak agonist... Are you deliberately missquoting me or do you not know the difference?

And i didn't say that mestanolone was subject to aromatase? I said it downregulated the PgR, which is how winstrol has it's anti-prog effects.

If you are interested in JAK/STAT, do yourself a favour and look at JNK, AKT, GSKIII, p38MAPK, beta-catenin, etc, etc.

Whoever you are, I have no pre-concieved respect for you and i suspect you are trying to rubbish what i have said by deliberately missunderstanding or missquoting, because you think that makes you seem smart. But what i said has been published by people much cleverer than you, and understood by me.

Feel free to do your own research, and i suggest you try and understand it too.

[Kalika]

Originally Posted by paradroid

Read my posts again. I'm not saying that 5 alpha reduced steroids are subject to aromatization. Oxymetholone is subject to enzymatic cleaveage of the 2 hydroxymethylene group which yeilds (mainly) methyl test and mestanolone. The methyl test is responsible for the estrogenic sides. Methyl test also is an agonist of the PgR, however it is not significant compared to trenbolone or nandrolone and is about 2 fold of that of test. Again, i didn't say that all androgens are not progestins, so please read my posts again. And i didn't say that anadrol was an antagonist of the PgR... It is a weak agonist... Are you deliberately missquoting me or do you not know the difference?

And i didn't say that mestanolone was subject to aromatase? I said it downregulated the PgR, which is how winstrol has it's anti-prog effects.

a little water weight.

If you are interested in JAK/STAT, do yourself a favour and look at JNK, AKT, GSKIII, p38MAPK, beta-catenin, etc, etc.

Whoever you are, I have no pre-concieved respect for you and i suspect you are trying to rubbish what i have said by deliberately missunderstanding or missquoting, because you think that makes you seem smart. But what i said has been published by people much cleverer than you, and understood by me.

Feel free to do your own research, and i suggest you try and understand it too.

droids one smart mofo!!!

i was left out days ago on this one. hahahahahahah. it's all good though.

i will take drol with no AI and use the water weight.